Overcoming the mental issues
Overcoming the mental issues
I've been trading (stocks/options) for about 20 years. I found Mack's system about a year ago. I feel like I have the technical side down enough to be profitable. However, because this is entirely different, I struggle with the mental side - as most people do. Overtrading, revenge trading, all the classics. Did any of you have issues as well? What were they and how did you finally overcome them?
Re: Overcoming the mental issues
Market time and experience do not always correlate well, however sometimes they can. As an example, a key aspect in my own analysis techniques took 3 years before the “aha” light turned up. Was the answer sitting there the whole time. . . ? Yes. Had I integrated that critical piece of information - obviously not. Profitability in one area or method may also not directly translate because of personality aspects too.
However, let’s directly discuss PATs, as there are a few items which may provide additional insight. A quick conclusion is that something is mental performance vs technical performance. Because it is easy to make that assumption. I don’t want to jump to that conclusion just yet. One of the benefits of PATs is that is can be much more structured than many believe. The benefit of this is that high probability systems can provide quick and simple feedback of which course of action may be useful. Case in point, in a 30% probability system, it becomes difficult to tell if it is the system other than for every entry the individual would have to take the correct action. Not taking that action is wholly indicative of mental performance issues (assumption of positively tested system of course).
Mental performance issues are often attributed to some “hidden aspect”, however much of it may be attributed to lack of confidence or trust in trade selection or the system. Often quoted methods to work through that are “just practice”. If it is truly mental performance, than practicing isn’t necessarily the correct answer.
So, with PATs, if you were to compare your trade selections against Mack’s free resources M-Th on YouTube, are your selections overlapping 90-100% of the indicated trades (note, there may be other trades listed but the metric of interest is the overlap of your selected trades against marked ones)? The reason this metric is important is that markings are based on the presence of elements which define the edge. If that specific metric isn’t that high, it may be indicative of technical knowledge gaps, and mental performance with an uncertain edge is difficult to develop, and I hope you agree.
If your metric is that high, then you have defined where the proficiency gap lies, and that is a good thing.
One aspect of measurement is to see if there are specific areas which may result in issues. This can be type of trade (long, short biases), time of day, attempting to trade news. . . .etc. Narrowing the candidacy. Often having others review your trade selections unbiasedly can yield good results.
Another aspect is to develop a strong meditative practice. Meditation isn’t about feeling good, but becoming good about feeling. These are very different things. Very different.
Within the Price Action Lectures, after developing a strong foundation, there is Lecture 7 which is specifically developed to overcome mental performance biases. Because the lectures develop an almost mechanical system, Lecture 7 focuses appropriately on execution through a variety of factors which may affect mental performance.
While I cannot say if the course is right for you, hopefully some of the feedback through the metrics or other suggestions will resonate and point to a good path forward for you.
Trading is difficult, and the mental performance aspects are areas which can be developed. With high metrics, and a good meditation practice, screen time experience may translate to becoming comfortable with the edge and decisions. One needs to have confidence in the underlying though for the screen experience to have good effect.
Hopefully helpful and good trades to you!
However, let’s directly discuss PATs, as there are a few items which may provide additional insight. A quick conclusion is that something is mental performance vs technical performance. Because it is easy to make that assumption. I don’t want to jump to that conclusion just yet. One of the benefits of PATs is that is can be much more structured than many believe. The benefit of this is that high probability systems can provide quick and simple feedback of which course of action may be useful. Case in point, in a 30% probability system, it becomes difficult to tell if it is the system other than for every entry the individual would have to take the correct action. Not taking that action is wholly indicative of mental performance issues (assumption of positively tested system of course).
Mental performance issues are often attributed to some “hidden aspect”, however much of it may be attributed to lack of confidence or trust in trade selection or the system. Often quoted methods to work through that are “just practice”. If it is truly mental performance, than practicing isn’t necessarily the correct answer.
So, with PATs, if you were to compare your trade selections against Mack’s free resources M-Th on YouTube, are your selections overlapping 90-100% of the indicated trades (note, there may be other trades listed but the metric of interest is the overlap of your selected trades against marked ones)? The reason this metric is important is that markings are based on the presence of elements which define the edge. If that specific metric isn’t that high, it may be indicative of technical knowledge gaps, and mental performance with an uncertain edge is difficult to develop, and I hope you agree.
If your metric is that high, then you have defined where the proficiency gap lies, and that is a good thing.
One aspect of measurement is to see if there are specific areas which may result in issues. This can be type of trade (long, short biases), time of day, attempting to trade news. . . .etc. Narrowing the candidacy. Often having others review your trade selections unbiasedly can yield good results.
Another aspect is to develop a strong meditative practice. Meditation isn’t about feeling good, but becoming good about feeling. These are very different things. Very different.
Within the Price Action Lectures, after developing a strong foundation, there is Lecture 7 which is specifically developed to overcome mental performance biases. Because the lectures develop an almost mechanical system, Lecture 7 focuses appropriately on execution through a variety of factors which may affect mental performance.
While I cannot say if the course is right for you, hopefully some of the feedback through the metrics or other suggestions will resonate and point to a good path forward for you.
Trading is difficult, and the mental performance aspects are areas which can be developed. With high metrics, and a good meditation practice, screen time experience may translate to becoming comfortable with the edge and decisions. One needs to have confidence in the underlying though for the screen experience to have good effect.
Hopefully helpful and good trades to you!
Re: Overcoming the mental issues
Thank you Eric for the lengthy reply. Over the past several months, trying to figure out my 'issues', I investigated meditation. And it DID seem to help. However, as most new things tend to do, it fell by the wayside. Not because of any other reason, other than it wasn't a habit yet. Coincidentally, today, during a 5 hr drive, I listened to Dr. Andrew Huberman's latest podcast which talks about meditation, so feel like I've come back to the path. Your comments just reinforced that.
I'd like to bring up an example of just one of the mental struggles I have. Mack always says do you want to trade or do you want to make money? While I have posted my thoughts on that particular question over there, there is a third troublesome option that I fall victim to. I want to be right. I want to be clever. My 'dopamine hit' doesn't come from having a winning trade, but right trade. While a winning trade IS a right trade, trying to be right, does not always lead to a winning trade. Let's say you see signs that an uptrend is losing steam and soon should reverse. I try to pick the top. I know I shouldn't. I know there's no reason for that. I know it's a fool's errand to try. But try I do. And most of the time it's a losing trade. So, inevitably I quickly tell myself that this now is the top. It also is a losing trade. And now my mental state is blown and it's off to the races to blow up another account.
In post game analysis, the errors are clear. However, in the heat of the moment, I feel like I'm having an out of body experience and can sometimes even look at myself and know I'm making mistakes, and yet not care.
The above example is to expose myself and be open and honest. I have flaws. I'm willing to put forth the effort to fix them. I just don't know how. How do I change character defects and become the person I want to be? I have had an image in my head for a long time. And that is I will pound my head against the wall time and time again, methodically, diligently, bloodying myself to tear down the wall and get to the other side. While everyone around me is watching saying "Why in the Hell won't he just walk through the door, that's 5 feet over there?" My Sisyphean world is that I just don't know the door is there.
I'd like to bring up an example of just one of the mental struggles I have. Mack always says do you want to trade or do you want to make money? While I have posted my thoughts on that particular question over there, there is a third troublesome option that I fall victim to. I want to be right. I want to be clever. My 'dopamine hit' doesn't come from having a winning trade, but right trade. While a winning trade IS a right trade, trying to be right, does not always lead to a winning trade. Let's say you see signs that an uptrend is losing steam and soon should reverse. I try to pick the top. I know I shouldn't. I know there's no reason for that. I know it's a fool's errand to try. But try I do. And most of the time it's a losing trade. So, inevitably I quickly tell myself that this now is the top. It also is a losing trade. And now my mental state is blown and it's off to the races to blow up another account.
In post game analysis, the errors are clear. However, in the heat of the moment, I feel like I'm having an out of body experience and can sometimes even look at myself and know I'm making mistakes, and yet not care.
The above example is to expose myself and be open and honest. I have flaws. I'm willing to put forth the effort to fix them. I just don't know how. How do I change character defects and become the person I want to be? I have had an image in my head for a long time. And that is I will pound my head against the wall time and time again, methodically, diligently, bloodying myself to tear down the wall and get to the other side. While everyone around me is watching saying "Why in the Hell won't he just walk through the door, that's 5 feet over there?" My Sisyphean world is that I just don't know the door is there.
Re: Overcoming the mental issues
The need to be right is an issue, but there still are a few factors. Right -> money, freedom, sky's the limit. The other side of that is wrong -> negative money, stuck. Both of these are issues, and having either of them is emotional attachment to an outcome of which you can not control. Let me repeat that again. . . . during normal market operations, you are invisible. You will not move the market. In fact, your objective is to read the shifting market and get on board in the direction of the common consensus, independent of however you "think" something is going to happen. The thinking mind can actually cloud your vision by expectations.
And while much of that may be helped by meditation, one of the key aspects which is overlooked is this:
1. Are your trade selections matching against a known edge reference? 90-100%. If the answer to this is no, it doesn't matter what you think, because the analysis is wrong. You could want to be right, you could want to be wrong. However, trading in areas without the edge can not be addressed by mindset alone. Yes, you need to be patient, but if one isn't clear about how the edge manifests, and how it appears . . . . . well of course you want to be right - because then you are on the right path right? Making progress. However you are judging that in the moment, and all of this mental activity should occur afterwards.
If you are making "guesses" to be right, the edge isn't defined strongly enough. You need to be 90-100% matching. If you are, then the edge is well enough defined, and focusing on mental performance should have good effect. Without an edge though . . . . well, it really doesn't matter does it?
Meditation is wonderful. The mental clarity to stick to a plan with edge is the clear choice. The question becomes, is that edge clear enough to operate well? If you can define a plan that is strong enough with edge, then yes, the mental aspects become the clear focusing goal. However, without the apparent edge, progress becomes a bit hampered between searching for edge, and sticking to a plan.
Hopefully this discussion is providing you a sense of where your opportunities may exist. Mental performance is critical, and an edge needs to be solidly grounded for the mental performance to show positive trade activity.
Making market decisions through emotional swings is very dangerous. Especially before consistency has been established. The market is designed to fool emotional biases, and the ES is very punishing to that effect. Especially to those who like to buy breakouts.
Being right makes things easy. Makes things comfortable. Trading is becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable in my opinion.
Hopefully helpful and good trades to you!
And while much of that may be helped by meditation, one of the key aspects which is overlooked is this:
1. Are your trade selections matching against a known edge reference? 90-100%. If the answer to this is no, it doesn't matter what you think, because the analysis is wrong. You could want to be right, you could want to be wrong. However, trading in areas without the edge can not be addressed by mindset alone. Yes, you need to be patient, but if one isn't clear about how the edge manifests, and how it appears . . . . . well of course you want to be right - because then you are on the right path right? Making progress. However you are judging that in the moment, and all of this mental activity should occur afterwards.
If you are making "guesses" to be right, the edge isn't defined strongly enough. You need to be 90-100% matching. If you are, then the edge is well enough defined, and focusing on mental performance should have good effect. Without an edge though . . . . well, it really doesn't matter does it?
Meditation is wonderful. The mental clarity to stick to a plan with edge is the clear choice. The question becomes, is that edge clear enough to operate well? If you can define a plan that is strong enough with edge, then yes, the mental aspects become the clear focusing goal. However, without the apparent edge, progress becomes a bit hampered between searching for edge, and sticking to a plan.
Hopefully this discussion is providing you a sense of where your opportunities may exist. Mental performance is critical, and an edge needs to be solidly grounded for the mental performance to show positive trade activity.
Making market decisions through emotional swings is very dangerous. Especially before consistency has been established. The market is designed to fool emotional biases, and the ES is very punishing to that effect. Especially to those who like to buy breakouts.
Being right makes things easy. Makes things comfortable. Trading is becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable in my opinion.
Hopefully helpful and good trades to you!
Re: Overcoming the mental issues
Heya!
I share similar experiences Icarus. I started my trading journey with options and recognize I have built in this perma-short bias from being a net seller.
I have been trading the PAT’s program for 3 years now and it’s taken time to get rid of a lot of prior tendencies. The more you learn and understand the language, the decisions become increasingly binary. Those decisions will help to keep you from picking tops and bottoms.
Thanks to Eric for the price action lectures and all the help and value you have given to the community!!
I share similar experiences Icarus. I started my trading journey with options and recognize I have built in this perma-short bias from being a net seller.
I have been trading the PAT’s program for 3 years now and it’s taken time to get rid of a lot of prior tendencies. The more you learn and understand the language, the decisions become increasingly binary. Those decisions will help to keep you from picking tops and bottoms.
Thanks to Eric for the price action lectures and all the help and value you have given to the community!!
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scalptrade787
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:52 am
Re: Overcoming the mental issues
Icarus, I thought that my inconsistent trading results were from mental issues alone, but discovered earlier this year that I had gaps in my technical skills.That was the main reason I was anxious, fomo and afraid, because I wasnt totally sure what prices as I didn’t understand price action well enough.
(We fear what we don’t understand.)
I would recommend the PA Lectures if you haven’t already bought them. This course is opening a new dimension of the markets that I’ve never seen before, resulting in increased chart reading ability, understanding price movement more, self confidence, less stress, less urgency trade, less fomo and so on.
Basically, as my tech skills are increasing, my fear is decreasing.
(We fear what we don’t understand.)
I would recommend the PA Lectures if you haven’t already bought them. This course is opening a new dimension of the markets that I’ve never seen before, resulting in increased chart reading ability, understanding price movement more, self confidence, less stress, less urgency trade, less fomo and so on.
Basically, as my tech skills are increasing, my fear is decreasing.